If you're looking for a book that will truly transform your approach to success, then join Mark Cox as he sits down with Bob Burg, co-author of the transformative bestseller, The Go-Giver. They explore how shifting your focus from "receiving" to "giving" can revolutionize your life and career. Bob shares his journey from sports broadcasting to sales, revealing the pivotal moment he discovered the power of value and focusing on others' needs. Drawing on insights from The Go-Giver, co-authored with John David Mann, Bob illuminates the five laws of stratospheric success. Break free from the unconscious barriers holding you back and embrace a mindset where putting others first leads to genuine abundance.
---
Watch the episode here
Listen to the podcast here
Beyond Sales: How The Go-Giver Transforms Business Success With Bob Burg
We've got a great conversation for you because we're talking to Bob Burg who's the Author of The Go-Giver, a little story about a powerful business idea. This book, along with his Co-author, John David Mann. They wrote this book and became enormously successful. It almost became a little cottage industry for them because there was this book, which did super well, then they wrote a book called The Go-Givers Sell More for sales. They wrote another book about leadership, which is The Go-Giver Leader, and then another book called The Go-Giver Influencer.
There are lots of different books. They are parable-based books, which are great. It's a very interesting story about the protagonist Joe who's a real go-getter. Through some work with a mentor named Pindar, also known as the Chairman, he learns to be a go-giver. The Five Laws of Stratospheric Success that are shared in the book are the law of value, compensation, influence, authenticity, and receptivity. Bob and I chat about all of these and some great backstories as part of the book.
You're going to enjoy this episode with one exception. I made a mistake in the episode. Bob references that Pindar, the Chairman, is based on an amazing business executive thought leader in Canada. His name was Bob Proctor. I confused Bob Proctor with a guy named Bob Rumball who is also an amazing business leader in Toronto who did charitable work, particularly with the deaf. We did a little work with him.
My mistake, my apologies, and my fault where I confused these two gentlemen in the show. If you can overlook that, you can enjoy the episode. By the way, this episode is shorter. It's a 30-minute episode. We've received some feedback from you that you'd like shorter episodes, so there'll be a few of these. Let me know what you think. Team, here's Bob Burg. We're going to talk about The Go-Giver.
Bob, welcome to the show. It's so great to meet you.
It's my pleasure. What an honor to be with you. Thank you for inviting me.
The Journey To Writing The Go-Giver: Bob Burg's Professional Career
I am pretty excited about this episode. When I originally read The Go-Giver, so much of this book is well-suited to a client-first sales executive. It leads itself beautifully into how to sell well. People on this show have heard this stuff lots of different times. This book became a cottage industry for you. You've done multiple different versions, including one for sales, leadership, and influencing because it's so enormously popular. First of all, amazing stuff. Tell us the short story of your professional career that led you to write this book with your teammate, John David Mann, originally.
I began as a broadcaster. First at a sports radio then was in television news for a little bit with a very small ABC affiliate in the Midwestern United States. It wasn't long before I graduated into sales, as I’d like to say. I floundered for the first few months because I had had no formal sales training, but fortunately, I came across a couple of books in the bookstore. One was by Tom Hopkins and one was by Zig Ziglar, two of our heroes in the sales space. They’re legends.
I took those books home and began studying them and spending hours learning. It opened up a whole new world for me. I had no idea there was a methodology system, if you will, to selling. I define a system as simply a process, and I know you talk a lot about processes. It is the process of predictably achieving a goal based on a logical and specific set of how-to principles, the key being predictability. If it's been proven that by doing A, you'll get the desired results of B, then all you need to do is A and continue to do A. Eventually, you'll get the desired results of B. That was inspiring to me.
From there, I ate up every book and, back then, a cassette tape program. I went to seminars about personal development and realized that it was a lot about building yourself on the inside. Success is an inside job. It manifests itself outwardly, but it begins in the head and the heart. I loved it. Eventually, years later, I worked my way up to sales manager of a company and started also showing others. As the old Seinfeld episode say, “Yada, yada, yada,” and here we are years later talking. It has been a very fun ride and like you, I love selling. I love the concept of it and so forth.
Folks, those few people reading, read the book. Based on the sales figures, I think most of you have but it’s The Go-Giver, a little story about a powerful business idea. One of the reasons it's such an amazingly popular book is it’s written in the parable-type format that made things like The Wealthy Barber enormously successful.
That is one of my favorite books.
David Chilton is fantastic. Another is The One Minute Manager back in the day with Ken Blanchard. These are small, short, but incredibly powerful books. In this one, the concept of The Go-Giver comes from our protagonist, Joe, who's a real go-getter, sweating at the end of a quarter as he is working for Clason-Hill Trust Company.
The greatest leaders, the top influencers, and the most consistently and sustainably successful money earners always look out for the interests of others.
A little nugget, Clason-Hill is after George Clason, author of the famous The Richest Man in Babylon, and Napoleon Hill and the different series of books that we did. What do they call them? Not chestnuts, but Easter eggs.
I love that. Bob, in our first book that we got out there, it’s all these old relative names. It was the nicknames of family members and relatives names that I love. Napoleon Hill, I didn't pick that up. What a great Easter egg. As Joe goes through his journey, feeling the pressure, wanting to be successful, and wanting to sell, he gets an opportunity to meet with the guru, Pindar, also known as Pindar the Chairman. He ends up being taught in a very giving way the Five Laws of Stratospheric Success. Without giving away the whole book, is it okay if we talk about these five laws and maybe share a little bit about each?
Yes. By the way, are you in Toronto?
I am in Toronto.
Pindar is loosely based on Toronto's own late Bob Proctor. I don’t know if you remember Bob, but a great guy. He was a very abundance-oriented, giving, and sharing person. He had this great voice. He was this handsome, gray-haired guy. We modeled Pindar off one of your fellow Torontonians.
Here's the amazingly small world to connect it. For those reading, this is the first time Bob and I have met. I went to school beside Bob's facility, which was the Center for the Deaf. Bob worked with the deaf in a very significant way. He was incredibly giving. About once or twice a year, I played high-end hockey for that school. Our hockey team would go over and play ball hockey with his group. Bob was so passionate. I remember a couple of speeches. He talked about being wise and unwise in terms of his motivational speaking, but what a personality and a leader. We go right across the way, bring our gear, go into their gym, and play ball hockey with them for a couple of hours. It was insanely fun.
What a great story.
What a great man. There are going to be more Easter eggs that come out in this book. This is fantastic. At some point in time, we'll get to the Easter eggs. You were a Golden Gloves Champion, by the way. Did I see that in my research right?
Yes. It was a long time ago.
The First Law Of Stratospheric Success: The Law Of Value
I'm still going to stay on my best behavior. I have a feeling, somehow, you'd get to me and it wouldn't end well for me. We'll start with the 1st of the 5 Laws of Stratospheric Success that Pindar ends up coaching Joe on and Joe starts to learn through the fable. The first one is the Law of Value. Your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payments.
When you first hear counterintuitive or when you think about it, you’re like, “Give more in value than I take in payment, isn't that a recipe for bankruptcy?” We need to understand the difference between price and value. Price is a dollar figure. It's a dollar amount. It's finite. It is what it is. Value is the relative worth or desirability of something to the end-user or beholder. In other words, what is it about this thing, product, service, concept, idea, or what have you that brings so much worth or value to another human being that they will willingly exchange their money for it and be glad they did while you also make a very healthy profit?
A quick example would be the accountant you hire to do your taxes who charges $1,000. That's her fee or her price. Through her hard work, getting to know you, your needs, and your business, and learning, she's able to save you $5,000 in taxes. She gave you countless hours of time. She provides you and your family with the security and peace of mind of knowing it was done correctly.
She gave you well over $5,000 in value in exchange for a $1,000 price. She gave you more in value than you took in payment. You feel great about it. She also made a very healthy fee because it was worth it for her to exchange her time, energy, knowledge, wisdom, and help for that $1,000. You have more in value than you take in payment because value and price are not the same thing.
Bob, this is where this is so powerful. You said, “I'd feel good as the recipient of her work because I get a 5X, 10X, or 100X return.” The truth is as a business professional she feels better, too. This is one thing we see in professional sales where a lot of the folks new to B2B professional sales, our profession, don't always understand the impact that they're going to have on somebody else's business with the product or service they're providing. As a result, they feel like they have imposter syndrome or they feel like they're taking instead of understanding there's a real impact. They have to be able to understand that impact. They need business acumen and industry acumen, and then they need to be able to communicate that value.
You summed it up perfectly. There's nothing more I could ever even add to that.
The Second Law Of Stratospheric Success: The Law Of Compensation
Thanks for that, Bob. We'll go to the second one in the Five Laws of Stratospheric Success, which is the law of compensation. Your income is determined by how many people you serve and how well you serve them. It is so fundamental.
Where law number one says, “Give more in value than you take or receive in payment.” Law number two tells us, “The more people whose lives you touch with the exceptional value you provide, the more money with which you'll be rewarded.” In that part of the book, Nicole Martin, the CEO, told Joe, the protege, “Law value represents your potential income, but it's not enough to serve one person no matter how well you're serving them.”
The law of compensation is about your actual income because it's how many lives you impact. That's why we're such big believers in referral-based business because you can touch more people's lives through referrals. Why? With referred prospects, it's easier to set an appointment. You're going in on borrowed influence. With a referred prospect, price is less of an issue.
Authenticity is not about having no boundaries. It’s about acting congruently with your values.
Based on influence and borrowed trust, you go in with gravitas. You're able to sell at a high value rather than a low price. With a referred prospect, it's easier to complete the sale because of borrowed trust or what we call vicarious experience. They've never done business with you personally but someone who they know, like, and trust has said, “This is the person you need to see. They'll take great care of you. Their company's fantastic. Their product and service is good,” and so forth.
One of the biggest benefits of a referral-based prospect is that they're already of the mindset that that's how you do business because that's how they met you. To use Bob Proctor's words, their paradigm is that you meet your prospects through referral. You sell on high value rather than low price. You complete the sale, and then as part of that process, you are referred to others.
It is so powerful when we get into the referrals and so underutilized. When I was doing a workshop with somebody, I had to do a deeper dive into referrals. We also want to call out another one of Bob's books, Endless Referrals. It is also a very strong expert in this space that you want to check out. One of the things that was interesting was the difference in terms of a sale or referral that if you remind the person you're working with that they came in through a referral.
The Third Law Of Stratospheric Success: The Law Of Influence
There was a massive sample size in this particular study. For half of them, they reached out to their existing base. In a professional way, they were asking for referrals. In another half, they went to them and said, “Remember, you came to us through a referral. Is there anyone you'd like to show that same consideration to and refer us to them to see if we can help them?” There was a 20% uptick in the second one reminding that person they originally came to you that way. It is very powerful. The third law is the law of influence. Your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people's interests first.
This one not only sounds counterintuitive when you first hear it. It sounds counterproductive. It is downright Pollyanna-ish at worst. It’s like, “Place the other person's interests first?” If you think about it, the greatest leaders that you know, the top influencers, the most consistent, and sustainably successful money earners, this is simply how they run their lives and conduct their business. They're always looking out for that other person's interest.
Let me qualify that statement if I may. When we say to place the other person's interest first, we don't mean you should be anyone's doormat, a martyr, or self-sacrificial in any way. It's simply that Joe, the protege, learned from several mentors what we call the golden rule of selling or the golden rule of business. All things being equal, people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like, and trust. There's no faster, more powerful, or more effective way of eliciting those feelings toward you or in others than by genuinely moving from that I focus or me focus to that other focus. Looking to Sam, one of the mentors, he advised Joe, “Make your win all about the other person's win.”
When people say, “Is that the real world?” It brings me back to something I used to say when I was on the road speaking. I'm in my 60s, so I don't get on airplanes anymore, but when I was, I used to speak at a lot of sales conferences. I know you do, too. One of the first things I would say to the audience is, “Nobody's going to buy from you because you have a quota to meet. They're not going to buy from you because you have a sales goal, you need the money, or even because you're a nice person, which I know you are. They're going to buy from you because they believe they will be better off by doing so than by not doing so.”
Doesn't it make sense that when you can take your focus off, you make it about them? What do they need? What do they want? What do they desire? What challenges are they having that you can help mitigate? What strengths do they maybe have that they don't even know about that you can help expand? When we do that and we focus on them and make it about them, not about us. We're creating much more of what we call a benevolent context for the sale to occur.
Bob, why is it so hard for us to get this? That concept was made famous originally by Dale Carnegie where you can make more friends in two months by taking an interest in somebody else than you can in two years by trying to get them interested in you. Why is it that almost every generation needs to hear this again and again?
The Go-Giver: A Little Story about a Powerful Business Idea
It goes against human nature. It’s so hard to believe it. Part of that is we know we have this great product or service. We know it would help them so we're going to talk about the product or service, which they don't care about. We've been in business for our company for many years, which they don't care about. None of that matters. I'd love another thought of Dale Carnegie's. Ultimately, people do things for their o wn reasons, not ours. We've got to tie that into what their reason is. It does fly in the face of human nature. We're not thinking that way. That's why there are people like you out there who are teaching us that's how you do it.
Thanks for that. The other thing that's been a bit of a challenge in the past couple of years in the world of technology, particularly SaaS, is sales organizations exploded with investment capital money. That money goes to new sales resources being hired. They're not always worried about the cost of sales but they're hiring huge numbers of salespeople.
Back in those days, those salespeople weren't properly trained. They didn't know to do anything except try and get on a call and either book a demo or pitch at somebody because it's easier than taking an authentic interest in somebody else or having the business acumen to understand how to lead that kind of conversation. This short-term thinking, to a certain extent, poisoned a little bit by the buying community because they're a bit tired of getting pitched at or being demoed at.
It's February 14th when we're recording this episode. It's Valentine's Day. There's one other thing about putting other people's interests first that I loved in the book. On page 78 of The Go-Giver, Pindar explains why his marriage has lasted so long and it has been wonderful because Joe was amazed by it. Pindar has been married longer than Joe has been alive.
Pindar said, “I believe there's one reason and only one reason that we've stayed together so long and are as happy together as we were 48 years ago, more so, in fact. That reason is this. I care more about my wife's happiness than I do about my own. All I've ever wanted to do since the day I met her is make her happy. Here's the truly remarkable thing. She seems to want to do the same thing for me.” We're not going to get on the relationship pedestal, but there's a nice tip for all of us on a very special day, Valentine's Day. There's a great tip from Pindar we're all going to apply.
That was the subplot in the story.
The Fourth Law Of Stratospheric Success: The Law Of Authenticity
There are always different layers of learning. Principle number four, the law of authenticity. The most valuable gift you have to offer is yourself. That is another tough thing for salespeople. Certainly, for me, when I started, I had a veneer. I wanted to be Mr. Perfect and Mr. Uptight. Behind the scenes, I was partying and doing all these crazy things but I would never show that I was buttoned-up so tight I was going to burst. Let's talk a little bit about the law of authenticity.
Debra, who was the mentor in that part of the story, shared a very important lesson that she had learned. It is that all the skills in the world, the sales skills, technical skills, and people skills, as important as they are, and they are indeed very important. They are also all for naught if you don't come at it from your true authentic form.
When you do, when you show up as yourself day after day, week after week, or month after month, people not only feel good about you or great about you. They feel comfortable and safe with you. Why? Again, it is human nature. People want to be able to make sense of their world in a world that often doesn't make sense. They want to understand their world in a world that's often difficult to understand. They crave consistency in others, and this is a world that's often very inconsistent. When you are that person who shows up that same way, you inspire trust.
Let me share one thought if I may. I've noticed this since social media has become even more prolific. Authenticity has almost become equated with having no boundaries just as you say, do, or sell. Whatever you want because it's all authentic. It misses the point. It’s like the person who says, “I have anger issues and I yell at people a lot. If I were to act any differently, that wouldn't be authentic of me.” That's baloney. That's malarkey.
Giving and receiving are not opposite concepts. They're simply two sides of the very same coin, and they work in tandem.
It simply means this person has an inauthentic problem that they need to authentically work on in order to become a better, higher, authentic, more effective version of themselves. We never want people to take authenticity so as to not grow. It's to use that as an impetus to become the best highest version of yourself. I personally define authenticity very simply and that it it’s acting congruently with your values. If we do that, that's authentic.
What a great lesson for everybody reading. Sometimes, with a lot of salespeople, particularly those new to the industry, they are confused by what we do because they're confused by social media and the entertainment world or modern culture. Their view of selling is, “The salesperson is that person with the magic tongue that can talk me into anything.” You can't talk anyone into anything. It's impossible. People are repulsed if they feel like they're being manipulated in any way, but this is what we think.
Some junior folks that we've come across are almost proud to say they sold somebody something they didn't need because they're not getting the coaching. You go, “That's the exact opposite of what you want to do. How do you feel about that?” I love that idea of bringing your best self but your true self.
We've got somebody coming up on the show, a guy named Dr. Nick Morgan. I'm not sure if you know Nick. He's certainly at your level being an amazing author. He’s got a couple of books like Power Cues and one's called Can You Hear Me? We have the ability to sense the intent of another human being. There are conscious things we're looking for but subconsciously, there are millions of things we pick up on.
This is why sometimes you meet somebody and they're saying all the right things but for some reason, you don't feel comfortable with them. There are other people you meet at some point in time, particularly face-to-face, and you feel there's a connection. It's because subconsciously, you're picking up on all of these cues where their intent is on display subconsciously. You can pick up on these things.
His teaching sounds fascinating.
The Fifth Law Of Stratospheric Success: The Law Of Receptivity
Without getting into it too much, he had a brain trauma as a young person. For a couple of months, although he could hear and speak, he couldn't communicate well with anybody because the center of his brain that was picking up all these subconscious things had been damaged. Suddenly, it was turned on again and then this became his life’s work. It’s a very interesting story. We're on to the last one, the law of receptivity. The key to effective giving is to stay open to receiving. In the book, Joe has some difficulty with this one. He has a little difficulty with all of them, but particularly the law of receptivity. Tell us about that one.
The law of receptivity is making the point that you breathe out but you also have to breathe in. It's not one or the other. It's both. You breathe out carbon dioxide and you breathe in oxygen. You breathe out, which is giving. You breathe in, which is receiving. Giving and receiving are not opposite concepts. They’re simply two sides of the very same coin and they work in tandem. Bob Proctor was so wonderful at teaching this. The challenge is that the world around us gives us very anti-prosperity messages or negative messages when it comes to money, business, and abundance.
Our belief systems are a combination of upbringing, environment, schooling, news media, television shows, and cultural mores. Everything. Plus, the personal experiences along the way that we've had caused us great harm in terms of not allowing ourselves to receive because so many messages that we get is, “If you're making a lot of money, you must do it on the backs of people or must have done it dishonestly.” How many messages do we get all the time with that? We certainly see it in television and movies all the time. That gets into the unconscious.
There's this fight between the conscious who understands on a logical level that the more value you provide to the more people, the more money you're going to receive. That's great, but then it's fighting with the unconscious that’s saying, “If I'm making money, I must have done something wrong or been dishonest.” That's why I'm a big believer in making a proactive study of prosperity. We cover it on a surface level in The Go-Giver, but to go deep.
It is to study the late Bob Proctor, David Neagle, Sharon Lechter, Ellen Rogin, Lisa Peterson, Randy Gage, and Ken Honda. These are people who write and speak on this whole thing. They're wonderful with it, and 99% of what they teach is simply how to get past those unconscious anti-prosperity blocks. It's magnificent stuff that they do. Focus on the value that you're providing and giving, and then allow yourself to receive.
Think of the joy you feel. If you know you have value to contribute, then all of those sales conversations are enjoyable. Unfortunately, in the world of B2B sales, 1 in 9 people in the US is in a B2B sales job, and a good portion of them are not particularly happy every day because they feel “it's a grind.” There's a difference between hard work and a grind. Hard work is hard work. A grind is painful hard work you don't want to be doing. That’s doing the gardening in the backyard for me, frankly.
Having a conversation with someone where I know I'm in a position to help them, I'm authentically curious, and I want to give love to receive is going to make me feel better about what I'm doing every day. It also gives me a little more professional persistence with rule number two to make sure I'm having enough of these conversations.
Why The Go-Giver Is A Must-Read For Leaders And Influencers
You've talked about some amazing authors and shared them. I hope everybody benefits from that. I'm going to take a note here again and say you are an amazing author. This is a spectacular book. I'm not the first to mention this. This is a cottage industry, this whole Go-Givers. Go-Givers Sell More is another book that we read before. There are Go-Givers for leadership and influencers. These are powerful messages applied in a very entertaining way.
This is a two-hour read. Picking up this book and reading this book cannot be a mistake. There are few things in life you can say, “This is the right thing to do.” I'm telling you, folks, this is the right thing for you to do. Inside the cover, many of our guests have provided sparkling testimonials to Bob and John David Mann about the book, whether it's Daniel Pink or Stephen M. R. Covey. They loved this book, and so did I.
John David Mann is a writer and storyteller. He is a brilliant guy. These never would've been anywhere near where they were without his brilliance.
What a great team. Bob, what a great pleasure meeting you. Thank you so much for joining the show. How do people find out more about you? What's the best way to learn more or connect in?
The best way is to go to Burg.com. Pretty much everything's there.
We'd like to thank our amazing guest, Bob Burg. What a great education. The joy of this show is we get to learn when we're reading these books before these amazing authors join us. Team, I'd like to thank you for joining. As you know, the intent of this show is to help improve the performance and professionalism of B2B sales because we believe if we can do that, we improve the lives of professional salespeople.
Thanks for reading. Please let us know if there's anything we can do to make these episodes more valuable to you. We're growth-oriented. We love constructive criticism. You can send your suggestions to me, Mark Cox, at MarkCox@InTheFunnel.com. That's my personal email. I check that personally and respond to every suggestion we get. In the meantime, thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.
Important Links
About Bob Burg
For more than 30 years Bob Burg has helped companies, sales leaders, and their teams to more effectively communicate their value, sell at higher prices with less resistance, and grow their businesses based on Endless Referrals.
Bob has regularly addressed audiences ranging in size from 50 to 16,000 — sharing the platform with notables including today’s top thought leaders, broadcast personalities, Olympic athletes and political leaders including a former United States President.
Bob is coauthor (with John David Mann) of the International Bestselling business parable, "The Go-Giver" which has sold well over One Million Copies and been translated into 30 languages. His is Founder of The Go-Giver Academy, an online resource featuring "The Success Vault”.
He is an advocate, supporter and defender, of the Free Enterprise system, believing that the amount of money one makes is directly proportional to how many people they serve.